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Background on the Twelve Tribes in Germany situation:
The Twelve Tribes, Child Abuse, and Michael Farris
Pray For All the Children of the Twelve Tribes, Part One
Pray For All the Children of the Twelve Tribes, Part Two
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HA note: The following is reprinted with permission from Jennifer Stahl’s blog Yeshua, Hineni. It was originally published on November 5, 2013.
If you’ve not been following along on my blog, you will want to read here, here, here and here before continuing on.
Here is the latest news on the Twelve Tribes group. Two girls that were in foster care have been missing for a few weeks. They have now been figured to be with their parents and in Switzerland. Below are the news stories I can gather as swiftly as possible. (HA note: these are translated with Google Translate, so the translations are a little rough.)
RTL – Spanking sect 12 Tribes: Two children kidnapped?
Merea K. and her sister Eva — For almost two weeks, the two girls are untraceable. Of their daily school in Ansbach, the two have not come to her foster parents home. The youth welfare office is on the case. Apparently, the 9 and 17 year-old girls are in the clutches of a cult that brutally punishes their children.
Donau-Ries Aktuell- Twelve Tribes: Two children abducted abroad?
The incident occurred about three weeks ago. The two children were placed in a foster family in Dombühl and come from the community in Wörnitz. On the day of their disappearance, the girls went to school like every other day. However, they did not come back. Their foster parents reported the case to the authorities in Ansbach.
Spiegel – Christian sect “Twelve Tribes”: Two children disappeared from foster care
Whether the children returned voluntarily to their parents or whether they were taken from their parents against their will, could not say a spokeswoman for the district office. This is the subject of ongoing investigation.
BR – “Twelve Tribes” disappeared children with their grandmother
According to current knowledge of the prosecution Ansbach, “the two girls went voluntarily to Switzerland. Their parents also plan to stay in Switzerland.” Chief Public Prosecutor Gerhard Karl told Bayerischer Rundfunk on request. How the children moved to Switzerland, is currently unclear, according to the authorities.
SWR – Religious community “Twelve Tribes” Missing children are at grandmother’s
The members of the sect who live on the estate Klosterzimmern in Deiningen is accused of beating their children for religious reasons. Therefore, the authorities concerned parents deprived of the custody .Mid-September, the girls were placed with a foster family… As the children moved to Switzerland, was unclear, said a spokesman for the district office. The Authority has filed a complaint against persons unknown for child abduction. In addition, they submitted a request for return of the children. However, since the girls had dual citizenship, this is difficult.
Homeschoolers Anonymous 
Why does the story of Eva Krumbacher stop here? Is that when the story no longer fits the bias? Why don’t you report that Eva & Merea ran away of their own initiative, fled the country to their grandmother’s house in Switzerland, but were tracked down and captured by the Swiss police and transported with many tears back to the hands of the German police so that they could be split up and put into different foster homes?? Fortunately, a judge heard Eva’s cries for justice and let her go back to her parents, since there never was any evidence of abuse and she was beyond the age for spanking. Her diary can be found online at http://twelvetribes.org/publication/diary-abused-girl
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The judge returned Eva to her parents because she is almost 18, that is all. Eva and Merea did not manage to run away on their own but got ample support. And her diary is to some extent the work of a completely mind controlled girl. But that does not fit the bias of the TT idideology, so Mr Kroheler doe not like it
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@Gwen, I hope you actually read her diary. You can obviously see that she wanted to be back with her parents, and was hindered from exercising her right to religion and her choice of where she wanted to live, by the German authorities. I just noticed that the coverage stopped when more details came about the story, that Eva ran away instead of being kidnapped, as the first stories reported.
I don’t know what criteria you are using to judge that her diary is the work of a “completely mind controlled girl”. Leading social scientists studying new religious movements have found no empirical evidence for the “mind-control” theory, or should I say, accusation, often leveled against new religious movements. In other words, the accusation of “brainwashing” and “mind control” in new religious movement has been shown to be without scientific proof. You can read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_control#Deprogramming_and_the_anti-cult_movement
It is often used as a means of defamation by anti-cult “experts” who are paid thousands of dollars. Words like “cult” and “sect” have even been abandoned by the scientific community, because they are often used as pejoratives, much like people have used the word other words to describe people of different beliefs, religions, or races than their own. We in the Twelve Tribes don’t get offended by people using these terms, but its good to be informed about what terms are correct.
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Mr Kroehler, you are wrong on all counts! “Deprogramming” nowadays is called “intervention” and it does work very well indeed. Most anti-cult centres work on a not-for-profit basis. Eva’s diary is so full of standard phrases and formulations that are not likely to be by a 17 year old woman. And the coverage in Germany does not stop with Eva’s “escape”. I read German fluently, and there have been the following stories. (There also is a lot going on behind the scenes, but that should be of no concern to you). Just for the sake of interested readers, a list. Jennifer has not have the time to provide regular updates on this HA site, so go and visit her blog, called Yeshua Hineni.
1. A contributor to a blog threatened the authorities with all murder and bombings etc.. He was promptly arrested.
2. A neighbourhood meeting turned out to be very controversial when a “mother” produced a rod and proudly said that she beat her children with it.
3.Child Protection Services moved in and took the remaining toddlers away from their parents. The mothers knew months in advance that this would happen but chose to stage a melodrama “oh, our babies were torn from their mothers’ breastfeeding bosoms” (when the youngest was infact 18 months old). Surely those “mothers” very proactively added to the separation trauma
4.Thanks to Jennifer’s blog that translates the media coverage on the cases into English, a TT defector from the English speaking world contacted the German media and supplied them with the juicy bits of your internal archives: The holy words of the great annointed guru Spriggs on Jews, Blacks, and the “hierarchy of races”. Ooh, that impressed the authorities quite a bit.
Don t give me that “freedom of religion” thingy. I am very familiar with the cases and I do hope the children never are returned to the cult. Germany usually does not call in interventionists so early in child custody cases, but boy, give those kids and youths about half a year, and they ll know the difference between daily beatings, total “coverage” by adults, training for unquestioning obedience, denial of school certificates and certified education and, on the other hand, what a pluralist society like Germany has to offer. And it needs to be repeated like a mantra, again and again:
The TT have lost their children (as yet temporarily) because they broke the law on several counts, not because they follow some quirky religion that disguises itself as Christianity.
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Revised the text which left some typoes, strange syntax, sorry for that.
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No,no I believe that Eva really wanted to go back to the 12Tribes. Now that she is almost 18, the fun part begins. She can pass on the wonderful child training methods to the next generation. Why suffer all that loving discipline if you cannot shower some young ones with that same “love”?
I think the Germans are doing the righ thing: interrupt the culture of abuse that is passed on from generation to generation. Best thing they can do actually..Women like Eva are too old to benefit, but the younger ones still have a chance to become gentle parents.
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http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Germany/201401070.asp
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Thanks Cinzia for inserting that link. You are right: the TT case is EXACTLY the reason why homeschooling will not have a chance to be legalised in Germany for the next century. So, all parents who want to teach their highly-gifted, bullied, or otherwise suffering children at home can be really really grateful to those fanatic nutcases that have implanted in the collective mind of Germans a direct link between the extremism, child abuse and homeschooling! They have destroyed even the little progress that has been made in the last few years. THANK YOU TWELVE TRIBES (NOT!)
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I live in One of the US communities and have been with the twelve tribes for over twenty two years. I came in when I was twenty five.I was very hurt by growing up in an abusive home.A matter of fact I was not even suppose to be alive.My mother was pushed down a flight of stairs by my father before I was even born and the doctors told my mother their was a good chance i would not be alive.well I had a greater purpose I was created for.It was to belong to a people that woke up this morning with one thing in mind.To love one another the way we were loved by the God of heaven who gave His only son for us.so that the life of his kingdom could be on earth.the last thing it says in the old testement was that He was comming to send a prophet in the spirit of Elishah to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children,and turn the hearts of the children to the hearts of their parents,or the whole world would be cursed.
[HA note: comment modified due to Comment Policy #3.]
I grew up being abused and I know what it is like.If it was going on here ,I would have left a very long time ago.I was looking for peace as a young man when I first came here.I was looking for a place in this cruel world where i saw love. If you think that the twelve tribes is a place where their is abuse than it is because you have never visited. Viloence and anger are not allowed where I live.see the letters the children wrote to the world on our websight. http://www.twelvetribes.org
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I am sure, contributor a, that you feel you have traded the hell of your childhood for a lesser hell. But it is a hell nevertheless. And sorry, but families who leave any of the TT branches, no matter where in the world, tell about the same kind of mind control and child abuse. The latest addition to the archive tof TT-defectors was researched and written up by a journalist of the Sydney Morning Herald, an Australian quality paper. It tells of how the sect scheduled monthly workshops to train parents how to beat their children. The mother of the family said she did not have a choice whether to beat her children or not. She had to. Her son grew rebellious at age 12 and tolerated several beatings a day, before he obeyed when he “could not take anymore pain”. He was taken out of school at age 13 and sent to work 16 hours a day in horrible working conditions. The parents were criticised for being poor parents and when the mother became pregnant and miscarried, she was told, she had deserved it, that it was God s punishment for raising such rebellious sons. The couple was forbidden to have sex with each other. Family members were instructed to fink on each other to their assigned “shepherd” especially about any thoughts that a member could have that was not in accordance with the teachings. Non violent – MY FOOT! Go and read it: “Secrets of the Family”, Sydney Morning Herald
Oh, and the British authorities are investigating the English branch – again same allegations by a defecting mother whose heart broke after she and other cult members had abused her son for 8 months – so she left. Source: The Independent
I do not tend to believe any members of that community, as there is so much credible evidence against them the world over. And when we look on their website we find that the guru of that community allows telling lies to people who are undeserving of the truth (i.e. CPS, courts, police).
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i have lived here long enough to here the craziest things said about a community that i am living in.Most papers these days are not much different than the National Inquirer .The problem is people love to listen to lies. Did you care to look at what our children have been writting on our websight? http://www.twelvetribes.org
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Mmh, I wonder… all that stuff is not just told by ex-members but on the Tribes official website as well. I mean how tobeat children, how children have to be beaten into submission and how that’s a great thing; how to abandon your family if they don’t wanna join, and how to lie to the outside world.You had elders admitting to the charges on tv too, they just cloaked it in some kinda newspeak. Like the military don’t call their captured enemies POWs, they call’em “illegal combatants”, so they aren’t subject to the geneva convention; the airforce never “bombed” it “serviced a target”. The Tribes language reminds me a little of that. Your website, IMHO, is a propaganda big time.
[HA note: comment modified due to Comment Policy #3 and 4]
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In any organization, there are people who join and then leave. The Rotary, the Mormons, the U.S. Army, Avon. Some leave for innocuous reasons (“it wasn’t for me”), some feel mistreated. We live in an age where the “whistleblowers” are extolled to such an extent that we often give immediate credence to the griper and the complainer, without really looking into things. “Contributor B”‘s bold statement has been echoed by others on this board, but shows the same faulty logic: “families who leave any of the TT branches, no matter where in the world, tell about the same kind of mind control and child abuse”. Is this really true that ALL people who leave the TT tell the same story? ALL? Have we really heard from all of them, or just the vocal grippers whose story is all too quickly published by the media? If someone felt mistreated and coerced by their employer, we might find their sad story somewhere. But it would be faulty logic to conclude that their testimony alone is the “real story” of what goes on at that job. Maybe many others love their work, and would tell the “real real story” about how that person was a griper and complainer and made everyone’s life miserable while they were there, and then continued. I would conjecture that the Twelve Tribes, being a new religious movement, is easy prey for the tales of the gripers. By uttering the one word “cult”, the writers are able to conjure up a foul brood of accusing demons and incite a room to violence against these “intolerant ones”, without even pausing to consider if their is real evidence for the label. Or what true toleration really is. I don’t know the couple in Sydney, but it sounds like a very dysfunctional family that people were trying to help, but the help wasn’t helping and now is seen as something negative. Their reports are nothing like what I experience in the Twelve Tribes. Their daughter remained in the community and got married. I wonder what she would say — probably not as juicy of a story though. I know David Eberharter, and he had talked to me on the phone years ago when I lived in Coxsackie and he wanted to come to the community. We reached out to him and tried to love him, when he called us. I’m not saying that we were perfect in this, and I don’t really remember much more about him. Many of the people we accept into our homes are people with psychological problems or who are on disability for some reason. Many find healing, but many leave, and they continue to have psychological problems. I’m not saying that everyone who leaves has a disorder, but just that some of those who left with psychological problems came in with those same problems. This should all be considered.
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Please, Tim Kroehler, public relations officer of the TT, spare me that drivel. You folks are in state of denial. Fact is, child abuse and totalitarian rule over members is rampant in the TT. And your policy is
a. to claim that it does not happen
b. to reframe the debate, pretend to be misunderstood: the concept of violence is actually love etc;
c. to blame the victims and
d. claim that violence was an individual choice of dysfunctional invididuals and families, and has nothing to do with a system of abuse that is taught according to the writings on your own websites (how to treat children, defectors, state authorities and in general, the world out there is standardised and there is nothing individual about it). If obedience to shepherds is furthermore at the basis of your “faith”, then your own publications are the best testimony to the abuse that is going on. Ex-members don t even have to complain, you do all it needs to disqualify yourselves
e. make yourselves the victims.
If whipping each other several times a day is your thing, go ahead and have fun – but leave the children out of this. Your child rearing manual is sickening and putting it into practice is in clear breach of the law in more than 32 countries of the world. Don’t whine to me about “intolerance”. There should be zero tolerance against the systematic physical and mental torture of children. There should also be zero tolerance against parents denying their children a decent education (i.e. one which ends in a recognised degree). Germany has shown it has the guts to stand up to child abusers that live their perversions under the guise of religion. I congratulate the German state and hope they stand firm.
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Let me quote from Rick Ross’ page (I know to Mr Kroehler, he is the Devil incarnate), but don’t let that deter you…
Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.
1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil c
cnspiracies and persecutions.
5.. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
8. Followers feel they can never be “good enough”.
9.The group/leader is always right.
10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
Does any of that – or all of it – sound familiar, when you read Mr Kroehlers eulogies?
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The German policy regarding the welbeing of the children has a wider perspective. I live in Europe and for personal reasons have some knowledge of its mechanisms. It is a complicated question, indeed.
Please see this video and also part two. An American woman charged with kidnapping and imprisoned in Italy. Pthe has never seen her daughter for 4 or 5 year now.
Please read also the story of Lady Catherine Meyer Laylle, who became wife of the English ambassador in USA from 1998 to 2003, after her divorce from her German husband. She could see her children for a total of 24 hours in ten years time.
More to come, should you wish to have a deeper knowledge.
Google “Jugendamt Germany”.
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Yes, there are scandals of justice in Germany, there are cases of injustices surrounding loss of custody. There have been errors and there have been genuine scandals. The loss of custody of the TT children are neither. The real scandal was that the authorities watched the TT abuse ther children for such a long time without intervening.
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Hello Cinzia, I don’ t really understand your comments in this context. The cases you are citing have something to do with Germany’s bias against non-German parents in custody cases following divorce. None of those cases are about abuse allegations. But the parents of the Twelve Tribes all are German, aren’t they? So what is your point exactly?
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Germany’s Jugendamt is so powerful, some Germans say it is above the state. It can take children from good families when it wants and ignore court rulings to return them.
Phillip Churchill, an American psychologist who has practiced in Germany for 10 years, said the Jugendamt cannot be compared to America’s Child Protective Services.
“I think Americans would be a bit shocked that so much power is turned over to this Jugendamt because they tell directly judges what to do or what decisions to make,” he said.
Churchill said that Jugendamt officials lie in court proceedings but cannot be prosecuted for it.
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I wouldn’t say it is a mere question of abuse allegations and I am not sure about who’s abusing these children now.
It is a BIG problem. I have many documents, in most European languages in particular French, Italian, Polish, German, documents issued by the European Parliament, petitions to the European parliament.
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Yes, the US Child Protection Services are a toothless tiger, and the German Jugendamt is not. That has sth to do with the fact that Germany has signed the UN convention of children’s rights and implements it, and the US hasn’t (apart from Somalia). And Cinzia, in the case of the TT the evidence is more than just statements of a handful of disgruntled ex-members. The amount of evidence is so overwhelming that saying “oh, it’s just allegations” is preposterous. There are filmclips, with sound and colour, in which children are caned. 86 canings in 1 ½ days, several children were caned more than once during that time. And before you start a debate on whether spanking is abuse or not – in Germany it is illegal, and that is all that counts. Add to that that the parents have openly declared that they are not willing to change their ways, in other words: that they are not willing to abide by the law in the future, and you have a real problem as a state. Furthermore, it is child abuse to deny your children an education that leads to a degree that in turn leads to real choice where to live when you are grown up.
So here, Cinzia, we have rampant child abuse, and the children are better off in foster care. Don’t make yourself a propaganda instrument of the TT– they are not worth it! If you are an activist for custody scandals, there is ample choice of real injustices to fight.
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Are there any drawbacks to going to college? I have seen it ruin people’s lives. Do parents have a choice? What if a teenager doesn’t want to go to college? Do they have the right to refuse, if they have found something better?
If the freedom to higher education is now an inalienable right, then why not add the freedom to television and the internet. What would keep you from including freedom to pornography, freedom to movies that degrade woman or all humanity for that matter, freedom to indulge in violent video games, freedom to use profanity, freedom to be disrespectful to others? Why not guarantee all these freedoms to children at the same time?
Has anyone evaluated the effects of the weakening of parental authority? There have been studies on the effects of children growing up without fathers, and there is a high correlation. Has anyone realized that the current parenting systems are not working? Can anyone admit it? Are any of the people on this forum parents themselves? Who cannot relate to the difficulty of raising children?
The Jugendamt has said in court that the children belong to the State, not to the Parents. But this violates their own Constitution. Are any Germans alarmed by this? Do they value their own Constitutional Rights?
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http://twelvetribes.com/articles/more-letters-three-sisters-chaninah-besorah-and-ishah-11-14-8-years-old
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The TT have their own Ministry of Truth, that’s right. Any other thing you want to tell us, a?
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Again, Tim Kroehler, you have no idea of German law, nor about what the court really said.
The German court did not declare that children in Germany belong to the state; it said that children are not the exclusive property of their parents (like slaves in 19th century Southern plantations,e.g.). They have rights that are enshrined in a legal framework. In so far, the state protects them.
They have a right to education that leads to a degree. This does not necessarily mean college education, but we are talking a (secondary) school leaving diploma plus either a college education or an apprenticeship in the “two tier vocational training track” (Berufsausbildung / Berufsschule): learning a trade in Germany ends in a degree awarded by the Chamber of Commerce. That is one of the reasons why German emigrants are more than welcome all over the Anglo-Saxon World. A master builder IS a master builder; a master baker IS a master baker. But in order to have a choice and have a career in the German labour market you need it “certified”. Criticise this as you please, however, it is the only way grown up children can be financially independent from their parents one day and choose a life of their own making. Therefore Germany regards a private denominational mini-school (this renaming was necessary to avoid the term “homeschooling”) that does not allow any of their children to obtain a high school diploma unacceptable. Those children, grown up, are virtually hostages to the community that raised them.
Here the state has indeed an interest to prevent that. Former TT members that spent their childhood and youth in the community but could not bear it any longer and left, needed substantial support in order to get a job in the “outside world”. Not to mention the financial support they needed for psychotherapy because of their PTSD.
And to compare the rights of children to TV, pornography etc. with the rights to a non-violent upbringing and a right to an education (vocational or otherwise) clearly shows the mindset you have. The argument is a bit like that of the overseer in Oliver Twist’s orphanage. When Oliver asks for another portion of gruel “Could I have some more, Sir?”, he is brutally beaten. Why? Because the mere question of a hungry child politely asking for one more morsel of the scanty food is, to the overseer, the beginning of a mutiny, a revolution, the upsetting of God’s order, and the end of the world in general. In Dickens’ novel, this is a caricature of the Victorian mindset. The way you argue is similar. Giving children the right to a school (!) education and formalised vocational training or higher education and the right to dignified treatment by parents to you is so evil that it is equal to opening the floodgates of “hell”. Your hyperboles are bordering on the caricaturesque.
Lastly, when you deplore the loss of parental authority, it is not really authority that you mean. It is authoritarianism. However, I am very pleased to tell you how the loss of total “parental authority(arianism)” has indeed benefited Germany:
1. The Pearl style child training that was very common in Germany until the Weimar republic (in fact Pearl stole his ideas from Schreber, a 19th century pediatrician raised a generation that loved totalitarian rule, looked for a strong and strict father figure who people could totally obey and submit to. They found him, and he laid Europe into ashes. Hooray.
The loss of total parental authority has turned Germany into a country that no longer starts wars and no longer runs after political ratcatchers so easily.
2. The loss of total parental authority has ended mass abuse (sexual, phyiscal, emotional) by teachers, priests, and family members. A child who learns to unquestioningly obey authority figures will not admit any idea that an authority is wrong or even a criminal. If a child does muster up that courage, and the system encourages total “parental authority”, that child will not be believed and his/her life will be destroyed.
The loss of total parental authority has decreased the number of unreported cases of sexual abuse and increased the number of reported cases. (This leads to a statistical paradox, of course, all of a sudden, it seems that child abuse has gone up, where in fact that is not the case).
3. The loss of total parental authority has given birth to a generation of fairly peaceful youths. Never before has there been so little juvenile violence. Yes, there are terrible juvenile repeat offenders. Ironically, they are exclusively from families that use religiously motivated corporal punishment. The most worrisome offenders are young male conservative Muslims and from Russian immigrants of German descent (the so-called Russian baptists). Beaten into submission, they are incapable of surviving in a culture that negotiates rather than coerces. So take the cane away, and they will be hooligans. Ruined for the 21st century by “loving” 19th century style discipline.
4. The loss of total parental authority has generated politicians who are seeking compromise and cooperation (albeit gundgingly) instead of government shutdown! Wasn’t that a specialty of your country? Again: a symptom of authoritarian thinking: use pressure, use coercion, use more pressure, use more coercion! – never mind that you are destroying your entire country. If you are right and G_d is on your side…
5. The loss of total parental authority has made Germany a country in which even convicted criminals of the worst kind are granted basic human rights: no torture, no capital punishment, and our maximum security prisons are there to protect society from dangerous individuals not in order to seek revenge on felons (by putting them in chain gangs, e.g.)
I could go on and on and on! All is not gold that glitters in Germany and I am well aware that much can be improved. However, it cannot be improved by bringing back authoritarian structures. And yes: I have children, I have raised them with love, showed them limits, instilled in them a sense of self-discipline and work ethics, they are Christians, with love, tenderness and empathy. We, as parents, showed parental authority by example. How would we want to be treated? How would we like to be taught? How would we like to be shown “law and order”? . I HAVE NOT HIT THEM ONCE!
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Thank you for taking the time to write, and even letting me know a little about you. It’s true that I don’t know much about German law, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain the importance of education to obtaining a career in Germany, even the distinction between apprenticeship and college. It’s true that people do respect the training of Germans.
What I said about the children belonging to the state was from a report from a close German friend who was told this by a judge. I don’t know if that judge was speaking for all Germans or if it is German policy, but that is what she was told. She said, “When I was in front of the court in Germany, because we wouldn’t send our children to school, and we wouldn’t pay their fine because we were not guilty, the judge said it like this: “The children who were born in Germany belong to the state.” Then I said to him, “No, my child was given to me by Yahweh, and he does not belong to the state. He belongs to Yahweh, and I am responsible for him, and I will stand one day in front of our Father and give an account of how I raised him up. It is me, not you.”
The point that I would make is that the whole system of getting an education so that you can get a job is based on a worldview of self-sufficiency and self-preservation. But we in the Twelve Tribes have chosen to follow the Son of God’s words in Matthew 6:32-33 to “Don’t be anxious for what you will eat and what you will wear. The Gentiles earnestly seek these things. But you seek first the kingdom of God, and all these things will be added to you.” Our Master was making a distinction between living for yourself, albeit in a righteous way of working hard, and living for the kingdom of God. We pray that “His will would be done on earth” and so we seek that. We teach our children to do His will, and to serve others. In “the world,” people have to work to provide for their own needs and their families, and so the system is inherently “self” based. This is the worldview of society — what matters is getting a good job so you can provide for yourself and be something and not be a burden. But our worldview is something different. We don’t expect everyone to follow us or agree with us, but we do claim the right to *exercise* our religion, and follow the commands of Christ, which includes training them up in the way they should go. We believe the Constitution of Germany protects this fundamental human right, and it supersedes the state’s interests in controlling education. Germany’s educational system may be the best in the world, but it still prepares its students to live for themselves and provide for themselves, not to “seek first the Kingdom”. We love our children, and we are doing the absolute best thing we can for them.
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I just saw this today. It is written by Germans about the woman Sophie Scholl with alot of parallels to this situation. http://news.twelvetribes.org/2014/01/13/would-the-white-rose-blossom-today/
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Concerning the education system in Germany, I have worrying information by an influential German online magazine.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/un-slaps-berlin-on-the-wrist-german-schools-perpetuate-inequality-report-says-a-473304.html
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Tim, I do respect your personal choice and that of your fellow tribesmen, and I am endlessly tolerant when it comes to alternative lifestyles. You can give all your possessions away to a guru, you can opt out of the ratrace and live “off the grid”, you can whip each other with or without love, until you black out. No problem. BUT, and that is a capital BUT: the children did not choose your TT lifestyle. They were subjected to it, including the abusive child rearing theory and practice. To a certain extent, every child must accept what parents put them through. However, the outside world provides a balance to the choices of the patriarch. A certified education gives the youth the freedom to choose later when they have reached adulthood. What the TT do to their offspring is holding them hostage. Leaving the community means: no money, no friends and family (as parents disown their own children and/or elders forbid them to keep in contact – totalitarian that…), no education to make it in the world. The concoction of the various abuses, and abuses they are, are what enslaves them. That is a pretty evil strategy, and not in accordance with the Bible. It says that the young generation shall go forth and leave their parents!
As to “the children belong to the state” – I finally get it. You mean the Wunderlich (homeschooling) family? Well, they lost custody of their children, for breaking the law, and the children are now legally speaking “wards of the state”. I am sure that Mother Wunderlich did not understand (or misunderstood deliberately?) what the judge meant. But the women in those households tend to have a rather limited horizon of things, for they are kept that way. The phrase “your children belong to the state”, however, certainly make for good PR in the circles of the religious right.
Oh, and I saw the comparison between the White Rose and the German branch of the TT on the net too, clearly translated and/or written by native speakers of German with a good command of English. It actually is quite shocking to learn that human beings in the 21st century see the right to free speech and the right to abuse children on the same level. That is a tragedy.The argument furthermore is ridiculous in its absurdity. Let’s rewrite the ‘dialogue’ and insert “the right to evade taxes” for “the right to free speech”, and you’ll have the farcical version of the drama. So those German members are not exactly masters of PR. I did take screenshots though, never you mind what for.
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THE CHILDREN ARE NOT TO BE BROUGHT UP THIS WAY!!
http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?ca=69eebd98-53e7-4864-b1ef-ec886b0a2733&c=6e887fb0-5be3-11e3-956a-d4ae529a826e&ch=6f436b40-5be3-11e3-95c5-d4ae529a826e
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Cinzia, I respect your fight against errors and wilfully wrong decisions of the courts and the Youth Welfare Office. But don t fall into the trap of automatically assuming that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. The TT parents in Germany are not victims although they like to stylise themselves into victims. They could have their children back within the next few weeks, if they prpmised to send them to school and stop hitting them.
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Gwen, your comment is very sensible.
However I had the opportunity to know the children perspective, I also met some abducted by the Jugendamt. There is one thing to say: not parents, but children are the real victims.
I cannot see in the future, but I think they are not going to have the children back, no matter what they do or say. I know it happens.
Just one more thing, one girl from this community, 22 years old, a few days ago has been denied medical care by a doctor, because she belongs to that place.
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Cries for help:
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Gwen,
Your comment is quite sensible. I know its impossible, but you should investigate further.
However one thing must be said: the victims of the German Jugendamt at children! I KNOW IT.
Concerning the TT, I cannot see in the future,but they are not going to have their children back, no matter what they say or do. I hope I am wrong.
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International opinions:
http://jugendamt0.blogspot.it/search?updated-min=2013-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2014-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=16
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I Thank you for the opportunity to express my opinion and release information on this blog. Also on behalf of German children and binational children.
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Well Cinzia, you are totally off-topic. The original article was on the Twelve Tribes (just as a reminder).
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I think it is not, as far as the german Jugendamt (youth administration) is concerned.
Here is one last article, maybe sektenfresser will understand it better that me: it is about the judge saying that they found no concrete abuse evidence in children if TT from Wornitz, but they will retain them to investigate further about the parental suitability to raise children.
http://www.br.de/nachrichten/mittelfranken/zwoelf-staemme-woernitz-misshandlung-ermittlungen-100.html
Keep a close eye on Germany, one never knows.
Ciao
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Cinzia, the article also says that there was evidence and hints galore but as there the camera documenting actual beatings, the judge gave the parents the benefit of the doubt – as it should be – in this trial dealing with the CRIMINAL charges, and the criminal charges only. Else that would have meant prison for the parents!Since the communities in Klosterzimmern and in Wörnitz live by the same “child training” manual, however, there is serious doubt as to the parents being “fit to raise children”. This charge does not carry the same penalties, if you are not, but it is illegal not to send your children to school, to deny them an education that ends in a certificate, beat them into submission and indoctrinate them with racist, anti-semitic ideas. If the courts find that this is indeed happening, then the parents are not “fit to raise children” and have amply earned themselves their fate.
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I just read this in Cinzia’s post link from Jan 15:
“We assumed the differences could be worked out. The school officials and the Youth Office knew well how well our children had been educated by us, their parents. Our school was visited more, and to more satisfaction, than any school in Germany. One of our youth recently scored highest in all Bavaria on the Quali. (Short for the Qualification Exam given to students after the basic ten years of education are finished.)”
If this is so, then why are we discussing the Twelve Tribes’ failure to provide their children a quality education in Germany? It seems that, just because a particular curricula doesn’t indoctrinate a child into person (or state) x’s world-view, it shouldn’t be labeled as ‘wrong’. The lack of a certificate at the end of the TT children’s education in Germany doesn’t seem to be a matter of the poor quality of their training, but rather that of whether the German state agrees with the religious beliefs of the group.
This may seem like conjecture, but a German official got to the core of the matter:
Wolfgang Drautz, consul general of the Federal Republic of Germany, said that “the public has a legitimate interest in countering the rise of parallel societies that are based on religion or motivated by different world views and in integrating minorities into the population as a whole.”
This was reflected by another German official in a comment to a pleading mother when the group’s children were being seized; “We will not tolerate parallel societies.”
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Yes,Jim, Germans have sth against adults abusing their power to keep children in virtual slavery by teaching them so little that they are indentured to the group that raised them for the rest of their lives. That is, why school is so dangerous to cults like the TT. Knowledge has emancipatory potential. The quali is the lowest school leaving certificate, and the TT school only provided one person who earned it. That does point to the sort of “education” which indoctrinates but holds youth in intellectual captivity. So Jim, don t be ridiculous. The exams for the “quali” are not about who knows the “right” things about the bible but about maths, science, and languages – there is not too much indoctrination happening there. You can even leave out social sciences or argue that sociologistts talk rubbish. Teachers accept a variety of positions, if you can argue convincingly..
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Oh, and btw, when you quote the TT on how they tried to come to a workable solution with the German authorities and everything seemed alright, you are using the same source that said, when asked by journalists right after the raid but before they knew that a reporter had placed hidden cameras in the torture rooms: “No, we don t hit our children”; “we don t know what a rod is” etc. How credible is that source then, huh?
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I tried to enter this post yesterday, but the whole post was deleted.
Why?
There are other links allowed in posts, and the content of the post and the link are not offensive.
I would like to respond to the thousand words above with a few pictures. The problem is, that words are just words, and there is no objective way to discern the truth, or slant, of what a man has to say apart from observing the fruit of his/her life. I was struck some years ago by how free and happy the members of the TT were as a whole, relative to the rest of society. Here is a summary video that they have produced that at least provides a way to look into the eyes of the ‘oppressed’ children, women, blacks and jews. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3eI0fWfK7w&list=PLqUyDlUQJPJsJyhdLkIoiIalgOJnY48uI
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I know the TT have their own Ministry of Truth which also produces videos. Frankly, some of their videos play into the hands of their critics. Empty, expressionless faces, robotically rendered pre-fab phrases. Happy? – Then, I have seen the eyes of some of the children in real life. They are well-trained, obedient, like wax puppets.They are over-eager to please but resigned to the fact that they cannot escape the beatings. There is that LOOK behind the forced conetentedness that speaks volumes. After about 12 years of age, their spirit is broken, and they have surrended. Except of course those that realise that they have been cheated out of their childhood. They are beaten black and blue for simple acts of make-believe. How can that not be child abuse? As to the adults who joined, I couldnt care less.If women want to be submissive, if blacks want to be treated like inferiors, let them. BTW, do you know what the children in foster care say and how they act when their parents are not there? No? – Well, I won t tell.
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Sektenfresser, I just went on the Twelve Tribes news site at http://news.twelvetribes.org
There are many pictures of the children who were taken. I was looking for signs of the ’empty, expressionless faces’ or ‘that look behind the forced contentedness’ that you spoke of. Again, what I see are some of the most clear-eyed, secure and genuinely happy faces that i have ever seen in my life. You can even zoom in on the pics to look for the indications that you referred to.
I do know this; that a child cannot easily hide in their eyes or expressions a lifetime of abuse. At the same time, they cannot hide the benefits of a loving, nurturing upbringing.
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Dear everybody, I only hope they a fast in their investigations on spankings and on real “personal” charges, because the worst abuse for a child is the sudden separation from the parents. – can you imagine, you are 1, 2, 4, 7, 10, 12…..years old. One morning the police arrives and you leave your “world” on a police car and are not able to understand and see your parents again for weeks. The worst abuse ever, unless there is a life threat or a sexual abuse. Children cry! Believe to my words, you can find heartbreaking videos of such abductions, but it is a bad experience to see them.
Abuse must always be stopped, but I’m convinced that Germany should be able to find a better way to carrie our investigations. And should stop considering “parallel societies” a danger to the “Volk” (the People). We already saw their attitude towards the welfare of the German People.
Please just give a quick look at this video, this is the life these children are being denied.
http://news.zwoelfstaemme.de/2014/01/18/was-fur-eine-schone-zeit-miteinander/#comments
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http://news.zwoelfstaemme.de/2014/01/18/was-fur-eine-schone-zeit-miteinander
seems to land on the page better
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Cinzia, the parents refuse to compromise! It is them who are to be blamed for the trauma their children are going through. Parents who are willing to sacrifice their children for some stubborn dogma of a former carnival showman turned cult leader, then so be it. But don’t blame the authorities.
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The sentence should read: “If parents are willing to sacrifice their children for some dogma…, then so be it”.
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Here are some facts about the Twelve Tribes community cult, we lived with them and were members, along with many others who have since left. In fact, most of the original members have left.
CHILD PUNISHABLE BEHAVIOR includes any type of bad attitude, being too loud, participating in “underground” anti-Tribes talk, foolishness, having too much fun, imaginary play such as imitating trucks or airplanes, making silly faces, not eating all your food, playing house, playing pretend, running around the house, or the slightest disobedience, or negative facial expressions.
CHILD PUNISHMENT is frequent and painful for even the slightest attitude or foolishness. Corporal punishment may be applied to any child by any adult member.
“If our children can’t learn obedience, Yahshua (Jesus) will not return.”
“The blueness of the wound drives away all evil.” [October 1980 Child Training -Notes from Teachers Meeting – Page 5]
“Unless your son has blue wounds, by this standard, you know what kind of a
standard is in you — it is the spirit that hates your son. If one is overly concerned about his son receiving blue marks you know that he hates his son and hates the word of God.” [No date – Execution of Justice – Page 1]
“We must beat respect into our children.” [Unraveling The Races Of Man]
CHILD SEX ABUSE has occurred, but is denied. Child predators sometimes join. One single brother repeatedly exposed himself to the small children in our Tribes bathroom, and after the second offense, was asked to leave the Tribes, but the police are never called. In fact you are not allowed to call the police or any emergency service without permission from your “shepherd.”
CHILD SUPPORT PAYMENTS are rarely paid.
CHILD TOYS including dolls, stuffed animals, little cars, and tricycles are not allowed.
BIRTHDAYS are not allowed.
BLACK PEOPLE need to be slaves to white people, unless they join the Tribes.
BLACK AMERICANS CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT is condemned as evil.
“What a marvelous opportunity that blacks could be brought over here to be slaves so that they could be found worthy of the nations. A good master would work by the sweat of his brow. If his slaves were lazy and disrespectful he would beat them, which is what he was supposed to do.” [Cham, Island Pond, 3/19/91]
(Note: “The Nations” is a place outside of The Holy City Heaven where the Tribes say they will live “to rule over the Nations.”)
“Striving for civil rights is of the world – it is disorder to the established social order. In the social order of the world there is distinction between black and white. We shouldn’t try to change it and mess it up. It is going against something fundamental. Cham (blacks) should have been a slave all through history.” [Unraveling the Races of Man]
“If the slaves were mistreated, it was the fault of the slave. Even if the master was unreasonable the slave was to bear up under it. This was Cham’s (black people’s) discipline. For 4000 years Israel had slaves….Cham was a servant (slave) to Shem (the white race). This is the Word. You can’t break the Word. The more men try to liberate Cham (black people), the worse he gets. It is more destructive for man to try to redeem himself, changing social order. The three races are to be distinct.” [Unraveling the Races of Man]
“Niger means black. When people first started saying this word, it wasn’t bad, but it became a curse word, having a bad connotation. Before civil rights black men would say, ‘Yes, boss man’ in the south. Yes man, no man. This was respect. We need respect in people. We must beat respect into our children. Cham must get this respect in them. These blacks during the pre-civil rights time, were really slaves – they had respect for people. They got along well because they were submissive…” [Unraveling the Races of Man]
“Cham is no longer, to his detriment, slaves or servants to Shem. This is a terrible thing, a great deception. It is of the anti-Christ to think Cham is emancipated when he really is not emancipated.” [Cham, Island Pond 6/26/90]
“This is what Cham should be like in the world – like black nannies – this is sort of what they were to do. They were to be helper to Shem. It was to be a natural thing. There is nothing wrong with this. Civil Rights, forced equality is anti-Christ, trying to change the heart – it can’t be done.” [Unraveling the Races of Man]
“The politicians and Martin Luther King have taken the provision away (a place in the “Nations”). There is no equal for the hatred Martin Luther King had for the black people.” [Cham, Island Pond 3/19/91]
“Martin Luther King was filled with every evil spirit there is to say Cham doesn’t have to serve Shem. All manner of evil filled that man.” [Cham, Island Pond 3/19/91]
“Abraham Lincoln was an evil man who deserved to die.” [regularly stated]
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THE TWELVE TRIBES CULT CLAIMS TO BE:
-God’s army which will someday erase evil from the earth.
-God’s only Chosen People, the People He’s always desired, but never had.
-New Israel, the true Jews. the true believers, the true Church.
-The grandparents of the 144,000 male virgin evangelists of Revelation in the Bible.
-The Bride of Yahshua (Jesus).
-The only light and hope of the world.
-The only ones who can reclaim this earth for its Maker.
-The only people for whom the Bible has been written, and who can understand it.
-The only people who are able to understand the Bible.
-The only people who are being faithful to God.
-The only people who are being saved by God from their sins.
-The only people who have been called by God.
-The only people who have been chosen by God.
-The only people who can now bring Yahshua (Jesus) back to earth.
-The only people who can preach the True Gospel.
-The only people who have God’s Holy Spirit since the 1st century.
-The only people who have and who can understand objective Truth.
-The only people who really love each other.
-The only people who see and understand life objectively.
-The only place where forgiveness, love and restoration can occur.
-The only place where you are really loved.
-The only place where you can obey God all the time.
-The only place where you have a real family.
-The only place where you have true friends.
-The only true work of God on earth since the Apostles.
-The people God will use to bring about the end of the current world system.
“We are the only ones whose lives of love and pure devotion, like a bride for her groom, can bring heaven to earth, all other attempts to do so are not merely futile, they are evil..”
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I would write much more, but not sure it’s necessary or productive. Their life is appealing and beautiful in some ways, but they are somewhat deceptive about The Teachings written by their leader Elbert Eugene Spriggs AKA “Yoneq” “Gene” “The Anointing” “Apostle” “Prophet” and “The Elijah.” The Teachings are not available to the general public, but they must be obeyed by members. The major thrust of their Apostle is that the Tribes would eventually birth and raise up 144,000 virgin male evangelists so that Yahshua (Jesus) may return to Earth. They are taught that they are the only ones able to do this. So, there is great pressure placed upon the children to be obedient, so they can raise obedient children, so those children can raise obedient children, and so that each generation more perfectly “obeys without questioning or reasoning.” I believe their Apostle is very much a sincere but very misguided and self-deluded false prophet who has done more harm than good when all is weighed in the balance, but members must obey all that Apostle Yoneq has taught. It greatly saddens me, there was so much good there among the sincere people. It’s a very long, winding, complicated story as “God’s only Chosen People” and as individuals. I am writing this mainly so that people can really come to know what they are getting into before they join and give them all their money and possessions, and are they totally controlled and often cut-off from former friends and family “in the world.” We wasted years of our lives believing the lies. I guess in the end people will believe what they wish. I care about the Tribes people. Most are kind-hearted and sincere, and go along with Teachings they would normally reject, because they have to, and they feel they have made the best choice for their and their children’s lives. I wish the Tribes could be different, to not be “the only ones that God is saving” to not be “the only place where God’s Spirit dwells” etc. That it could be a place where members could freely leave without believing or being told they will later be judged by God for doing so. Once you enter their man-made covenant membership you are technically bound for life to receive and obey without questioning and to be in complete unity=uniformity. And if you do decide to leave, you leave with nothing but your clothes and toothbrush. Some people, as we were, are desperate for a new life, but we later asked ourselves, “At what cost?” “Look before you leap” is a phrase worth considering. The grass isn’t always greener on the other side of the fence, for us or our children, whom we would not normally hit so often and for such trivial matters. But the Apostle said we needed to, and so we obeyed against our own conscience. The cult became our conscience. We gave up being who we really were, to belong, and for unity.
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